Hold the Line

In a land of freedom and liberty, people should be able to do what they want. Live how you want, do what you want as long as it doesn’t hurt other people.

The issue I have is I don’t want Homosexuals to try to force me or my family to think its right or acceptable. They will never be able to do that. I don’t want my right to say that its wrong to be infringed anymore than they want their rights to do it infringed. Homosexuality is condemned as sin in the Bible, and it is wrong. That will never change.

They should have civil unions, but they shouldn’t call it “marriage.” Marriage is a religious institution created by God for a man and a woman. That will never change either.

Amy: Dan, I don’t know you, but I felt compelled to respond. Based on your first paragraph, anyone should be able to marry anyone else.

Legalizing gay marriage will not take away you or your family’s right to say it is wrong. Smoking is legal but I think it is wrong. No one can stop me from thinking or saying that. Or even from running down the street waving signs about it. Also, the Constitution isn’t based on the Bible. That will never change.

As for your last paragraph, I’m guessing that about 60 years ago, that statement read: “Marriage is a religious institution created by God for a white man and a white woman.” Things do change.

Daniel: Hi Amy. I welcome your response and I think its wonderful that we can have a respectful and beneficial discussion over controversial subjects in our beautiful nation.

I believe we have the freedom to live our lives the way we want and the liberty to follow whatever path we wish. I think homosexuals should be able to form civil relationships with the exact same civil rights of heterosexuals who are married. I may not agree with the choices others make, but people should be able to have the freedom to do as they wish as long as they don’t hurt other people. The scope of that extends well beyond homosexuals, but no reason to open that discussion at this time.

I’m simply saying that the term marriage is a religious institution simply recognized by the State, and that institution was setup by God for a man and a woman. Where a man will leave his parents, merge with his wife physically, and become one flesh (children being one definition). It is a monogamous life long committment only ended by death. There are only two reasons God allows divorce, which is adultery and abandonment of one partner by another over their Christian faith. Reconciliation being preferred even for those two issues.

Why do homosexuals need the term “marriage” when they can have a civil “union” with the exact same civil rights as the other? There would be no difference other that the term that describes it. Marriage is a religious term, and the same religions condemn homosexuality as evil. That is the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths. Christianity is not the only world religion that is opposed to the homosexual lifestyle.

My issue is with the homosexual political agenda working toward forcing everyone to accept homosexuality as being a normal lifestyle. The agenda wants to make me and my family think its ok. They want my children to be educated to accept it as right. They want to infringe on our freedom of thought. Also, they want to take away our freedom of speech in expressing our views on homosexuality being sin. They call it hate speech, when its simply freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Part of that agenda is taking the term “Marriage” and redefining it, stripping it of any relgious significance, and making it mean something it doesn’t.

Racism is a sin and is wrong. Laws forbidding marriage between a man and woman is wrong. Race is a man made category to begin with, and in my opinion a terrible tool of division. We all were born of Adam and Eve in the beginning, so we are simply human. The laws that hindered marriage based on “race” were rightfully removed. I don’t appreciate you implying that I’m a racist, or that I don’t have the ability to have freedom of thought outside of a group mindset.

You are right, the Constitution was not based on the Bible directly. But it was based on the principles of Judeo/Christian thought and practice. Not saying that it was exclusively. That will not change despite the progressive, liberal political agenda to try to erase that fact from history.

A huge number of our founders were very much Christian, and if it wasn’t for Christian thought we wouldn’t have the freedoms we currently enjoy in this great nation. You should be thankful for the Christian principle of, “they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” found in the DoI. Its my opinion that the current state of government has already infringed on our liberty at all levels well beyond the founder’s intentions.

Other comments I made to other responses from contributors to the discussion:

A) “Reads to me like someone is itching to hit the gay bars! I think they have Bible studies at those…”

Yup, a favorite tactic by opponents to imply people who disagree with homosexuality are actually homosexual. It is an attempt to belittle a person and their views. Might as well say “stupid’ and “racist” too.

The actual relevant text of the 1st amendment, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” The government will not establish a religion as a state religion, nor will they interfere with the practice of religion in a person’s life.

I will say, that I agree with the idea of separation of church and state. As long as flawed, corrupt, sinful human beings are in government, I don’t want them exercising power in regard to any religion. When it comes to morality and law, as long as what a person does isn’t hurting other people have at it. Do to yourself whatever you want.

Funny, you set up flawed argumentation. Did you even read what I wrote with any depth of attention? I said that people can do what they wish including Homosexual behavior. That is their right as free individuals. I have no problem with what people choose to do in their own lives.

The principle that God granted us rights that were not given to us by the State and can not be taken away by the State is a Judeo/Christian principle. I didn’t say that the founders wrote the founding documents excluding everything else outside Christianity. But Christian thought played a huge role in their foundation. Never said there weren’t other sources. And please give me an example of a follower of Zeus or other Greco/Roman religions among our founders. I would love to know so I can correct my viewpoint.

I don’t expect you or anyone else to believe like I believe. Never thought that you or anyone else would jump on board and agree with me. But the homosexual political agenda is impacting all of us, and in a free society I will stand up for what I believe.

B) I’m not real sure why atheists want to call their civil union a marriage either, being that marriage is a religious term and institution. Might as well call it a civil union as well, as a atheistic marriage is not governed by any religious principles.

Marriage, a religious term and institution, is recognized by the State in civil law. I believe its simply the culture that the term was applied to a man and woman with non-religious significance who choose to be bound together.

Maybe atheist and non-religious people should throw off the burden of religion in all its forms including the use of any religous terminology for civil unions.

C) The Homosexual agenda is attempting to infringe on my right to freedom of thought and speech. They want me to believe their life style choices are acceptable and normal. They want me to shut up about it being sin and wrong. That is why I’m voicing my opinion because they are doing so at the government level that impacts my life. We have a right in this country to be active politically for what we think is right.

I’m not persecuting anyone. As I said, let whoever do whatever they want. We are all free to do so.

I’m protecting my religious beliefs by opposing a group taking a religious belief I hold to and strip it of any religous meaning and pervert it into something it isn’t. It could be any one or any group, I would still oppose them.

I never said homosexuals are less of a human being. They are just as much of a human being as anyone else.

I support equality, civil freedom, and liberties for Homosexuals.

I oppose their use of a religous term and a faith based institution. Especially because the life style choice they make is condemned by the root faith the term originates.

I did not say, “…just don’t expect me to give them the same freedoms I have…” I support that they have the same exact civil liberities I have, I don’t support their use of a religious term for their sinful behavior.

I don’t have a problem sitting next to homosexuals at the front of a bus, or eating in the same restaraunts, drinking from the same water fountains, or living next door to them. I’ve had plenty of friends that have been homosexual, I would tell them exactly what I am writing here if we were to have the discussion.

I haven’t referenced Hinduism, Taoist, or Bhuddist teachings. It would be interesting to find out what those religions have to say. Just because they outnumber us don’t make their religions superior or right.

If you want to begin a discussion on Christianity versus other religions… well, all I have to say is what Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6).

Just because the founders used the political construction of Greco/Roman institutions, doesn’t mean the statement from the Declaration of Independence is devoid of any Judeo/Christian meaning. I never said they excluded other sources. I’ve read the Republic.

And in regard to Greco/Roman principles, the idea that all people were created equal or had equal status, was not something they adhered to.

Amy: There’s no way I can address everything that’s been discussed in my absence, as I only have an hour long lunch break. But here’s a response to a few things that stood out to me:

First of all, you say you have homosexual friends and that you would say everything you have typed here to their faces? I’m sorry, but if I were homosexual and your friend and you sat there telling me, over and over again, that I’m a sinner and can’t go to heaven because I don’t believe in Jesus, we wouldn’t be friends anymore.

Second, no one is trying to limit your freedom of speech in any capacity. You can still teach your children that being gay is wrong, even if gay marriage is legalized. Just like you can still teach your children that evolution is a ridiculous made up theory.

Third, referring to marriage you said: “I oppose their use of a religious term and a faith based institution.” I hate to break it to you, but marriage is not a religious and faith based institution for everyone. It might be for you, but it certainly is not for everyone. Who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell Dana and her husband or me and my husband that because we didn’t get married in a church we aren’t actually “married”?

Daniel:

1. Everyone is a sinner, including me. Homosexuality is the same as any other sin. Without Christ a person will be judged and held accountable for their sin. That applies to all my friends and family whether they are homosexual or not.

I’m happy to discuss my views with everyone, but I don’t beat them over the head with my beliefs every time I interact with them. I share when I can, but of course most non-believing people I know don’t want to discuss it. I dont’ force anyone. Christianity can’t be forced on anyone. People can take it or leave it.

But, because I love my friends, family, and fellow human beings, I share with them because I don’t want them to be lost. Jesus commanded those who follow Him to share the truth with everyone. Its not a hateful thing, its something we do because we love, care, and are obedient.

2. Politically, the homosexual agenda is to gag anyone who would disagree with their life style. They want to force people to think their choice of life style is normal. Its happening in other western countries as well. Therefore, I have to oppose that agenda.

So you are saying you think Evolution is a ridiculous made up theory? Or are you implying I think that?

I would say that I disagree with macro evolution, and based on my research and studies I would say it would take more faith for me to believe in macro evolution that it would for me to believe in an intelligent designer. And the scientific fraud, out right deception, and oppression of opposing views is on the criminal level in the science community when it comes to the “theory” of evolution. No wonder we had such fraud and deception in the UN Climate Change scientific group. Appears to be common practice among some “scientists.”

3. I didn’t say that Dana and her husband or you and your husband are not “married” because you weren’t married in a church or attach any significant religious meaning to your marriages. If you are an athiest like Dana.

What I did say is atheist should consider abandoning any religious practice or terminology and embrace a “Civil Union” idea. That way atheist are free from any kind of “ridiculous” religious chains in their atheistic lives.

I also said that a non-religious man and woman can get married because it is a culture thing in our society. Maybe the society should abandon the idea of “marriage” and leave that to us religious people. We can all have a Civil Union and be equal. Then everyone is the same, no differences, and we are all happy.

Other comments I made:

D) Yup, we will all believe what we choose to believe. Live and let live, be happy and enjoy. To each there own.

Yup, I believe the Bible.

Whether you want to recognize there are active political groups out there fighting for their agendas is up tp you. In the USA, we have the right to take part in the government that will impact our lives. Since you live in Canada, American politics won’t have much of an impact on you.

I’m not trying to drag down anyone. I support equal civil rights for all people.

I don’t believe that God created people as homosexuals. I believe it is a personal choice.

If homosexuals don’t want to be my friend because I believe the way I do, there are plenty of other people they can be friends with. It would make me sad, but if that is what they want. I don’t sever my friendship with them because they live a certain way. I’m just defending a term and institution that are religious and in that realm of my consideration.

E) As to the validity of scientific research and genetic disposition of homosexuality, I haven’t seen anything conclusive/concrete one way or the other. If you are privy to actual scientific studies and research projects that have been verified by outside scientists/sources and they “prove” homosexuality is genetic please pass on some links to the research.

I have never known a “pure” homosexual person. Everyone I have ever known has had relationships with members of the opposite sex. So from a practical stand point I’ve only met/known bi-sexuals.

Comments by James White on this issue.