On occasion I will debate with athiests, agnostics, evolutionists, and others. In one conversation, an atheist asked for proof that God exists. I asked Him to prove that God does not exist. Then I asked for proof of macroevolution, he responded with three letters (ERVs).
Here was my response.
So I can’t “prove” God exists to you. You can’t “prove” God doesn’t exist to me. So we’ll just have to see what happens.
I do believe there is plenty of proof that God does exist. The Resurrection is the most important. Jesus died on the cross. The disciples knew that and they were terrified that the Romans were going to hunt them down too.
Then something so powerful happened that these men began going around saying that Jesus rose from the dead, and that we can be saved through Him from God’s wrath. Then they all went on to be killed in the most horrible of ways for proclaiming these things about Jesus. These men knew Jesus died on the cross. I don’t believe they would allow themselves to be tortured and die for a lie.
Some might say the 9/11 highjackers believed they died for the truth. There is a huge differences. The disciples saw, heard, and experienced everything about Jesus first hand. They were witnesses. So when they died for what they knew to be the truth, it was truth they saw for themselves.
As to ERVs, I have not studied them enough to make an intelligent, informed concrete determination on the true relevance if they prove macroevolution or not at this point. That is something I will have to research further.
I doubt its actual “proof” for macroevolution. Just because ERVs exist in other animal’s DNA, doesn’t prove anything. We all live in the same enviroment. The same ERVs that invaded the human body might have simply invaded other animal bodies too.
“The chances of even one ERV landing in the same spot in our genomes (if we weren’t related) is .00000000016% (since our genome is about 3 billion base pairs long). Think of the likelihood that over 60 ERVs would land in the exact same spots.” Article*
First, I would have to take a scientist’s word that 60 ERVs are in the same exact spots. With all the corruption, lies, and frauds in the science community, I’ve lost my trust in the supposed “scientists” who are nothing but closed minded, arrogant, biased human beings who always make mistakes.
Second, yes, that is a small number, but it isn’t impossible for them to land in the same spot on their own (without us being related). We still do not understand viruses completely. Maybe they are programmed to seek out and land in those exact spots.
I can easily believe that interpretation when I compare it to what evolutionists take on faith about the development of the universe. The chances of the universe developing out of nothing, a little planet developing in this exact spot in the universe in such a way that life forms are so small that the little number there about ERVs is like me trying to avoid paying taxes in comparison.
–End of Conversation–
On a side note, in the midst of our discussion someone attempted to infer that I was just stupid and that was the reason I believed in God. My response was, “Inferring a person is stupid doesn’t give you an automatic win. It just shows you have to resort to ad hominem attacks. Its like shooting a nerf gun at a tank.”
* This article has some very wrong data! Examples, “We also have millions of fossils to show transitions and millions of animals to compare DNA.”
1) There are zero fossils to show transitions between “kinds” of animals. Dogs don’t turn into cats, and cats don’t turn into dogs etc.
2) Millions of animals to compare DNA? That is laughable its so wrong.
How science works is you form a hypothesis (potential explanation for something) then you find a way to test it by making predictions which have the potential to either support or disprove your hypothesis. Every time you test your hypothesis without falsifying it the odds that it is correct increases and the odds that it is wrong shrinks. For instance lets say we have a hypothesis that there is chlorine in a swimming pool. If we know the properties of chlorine we can predict that if the water from the pool is mixed with chemical x it will turn y color. Then we do the test and if it does the odds that there is chlorine in the pool are good. But why stop there? Make more predictions and do more tests. It is after all possible that some other substance might react the same way, right? This is analogous to your assertion that viruses might seek out particular parts in a genome. So you rig up lots more tests, and after lets say ten different tests the odds that all those different tests would turn out precisely the way they must if your hypothesis is correct for some other reason or reasons is very slim. You never prove your hypothesis 100% because we must always allow for the possibility of being wrong, but you can establish it to a ridiculously high degree of certainty. So in science the validity of a claim is directly proportionate to how testable it is. The reason ERV’s are good evidence is not because scientists discovered them and connected the dots to common ancestry, but because scientists predicted what we would find in the genome using evolutionary models before the genome sequencing was performed and before those viruses were detected. And the viruses are often fragmented and heavily modified, so they contain genetic markers accumulated by mutations the same way regular DNA does, and the logic of ERV’s, genetic mutations and common ancestry is the same as that of a paternity test.
As for some of your other statements:
“I do believe there is plenty of proof that God does exist. The Resurrection is the most important.”
People believing something doesn’t make it true, countless messiahs and prophets have had followers, many of whom followed them to their deaths. Nor does people being willing to die for something, people die for falsehoods and every religion has martyrs. The reason someone believing something isn’t compelling is that people don’t just believe true or rational things. And this was especially true thousands of years ago when everything was considered magical.
“I can easily believe that interpretation when I compare it to what evolutionists take on faith about the development of the universe. The chances of the universe developing out of nothing,”
Nothing about accepting evolution necessitates believing anything about cosmology or whether the universe was created (darwin believed in a creator and said so in On The Origin Of Species), and I have never in my life met someone who claims “the universe developed out of nothing”. I am honestly so sick of this crap being put into our mouths.
“a little planet developing in this exact spot in the universe”
The planet is actually moving very, very fast and is not in the same spot it was five seconds ago, nor is there anything special about it’s location.
“in such a way that life forms are so small”
You are not qualified to assess the probability of the formation of life, to do so you would have to know the dynamics that gave rise to it – dynamics you claim do not exist. As for the likelihood that life would evolve a particular way it is equally likely regardless of the outcome so the probability, while interesting, is irrelevant.
“that the little number there about ERVs is like me trying to avoid paying taxes in comparison.”
And yet here we are.
Tell me, what is the probability of an all-knowing, all-loving, omnipotent, infallible god just existing for no reason and then creating such an improbable universe? Care to put a number on that one?
“There are zero fossils to show transitions between “kinds” of animals.”
That is because “kind” has no scientific or biblical definition. There are countless intermediate forms in the fossil record. We have pre-sonar bats, we have pre-shell turtles, we have snakes with legs, we have whales with legs. We have birds with claws in their wings (specifically predicted by darwin two years before they were discovered), we have horses with multiple toes, we have intermediates between mammals and reptiles, dinosaurs and birds, and humans and primates. We have intermediates here and there, we have intermediates everywhere. You can google them or go see them in person in museums. And we also have ignorant creationists closing their eyes and saying “Where, I don’t see any!”
“Dogs don’t turn into cats, and cats don’t turn into dogs etc.”
That isn’t the way evolution works, there is no mechanism ever proposed that would allow a member of one species to turn into a member of another modern species. This is like claiming that family traits aren’t real because your grandfather hasn’t turned into your grandmother. It’s ignorant, idiotic nonsense and it’s the sort of thing that makes people point and laugh at creationists.
Hi Agnophilo,
Thank you for the feedback on my article.
You wrote: “How science works is you form a hypothesis (potential explanation for something) then you find a way to test it by making predictions which have the potential to either support or disprove your hypothesis.”
I appreciate the lesson on the scientific theory, but I am very familiar with science and proper scientific investigation. Sadly, there are many scientists who go beyond what is acceptable. For example, many postulate that Evolution is fact. It is a hypothesis, and in reality cannot be proven to be true 100%. No one can go back in time and observe what are only assumptions and guesses. This is fact.
Now the “evidence” and scientific findings can be used to support such a hypothesis in some ways, but scientific findings can often be interpreted in different ways. Evolutionists will interpret their data one way, and others can interpret it another. Plus, the scientific community is full of corruption, fraud, bias, and oppression of freedom of thought. The freedom of inquiry and new ideas are being crushed under foot. The crazed evolutionists of today are just as bad as the Catholic Church when they persecuted scientists.
There are plenty of examples of scientific fraud. We can’t trust scientists anymore.
Here is just one example of recent fraud: http://principia-scientific.org/supportnews/latest-news/206-un-global-warming-fraud-exposed-by-detailed-new-study.html
Fraud in the field of Evolution “science”: http://www.uark.edu/~cdm/creation/shame.htm
You wrote: “You never prove your hypothesis 100% because we must always allow for the possibility of being wrong, but you can establish it to a ridiculously high degree of certainty.”
So the scientific community could be wrong about Evolution. Why not present it in that manner instead of demanding that everyone believe it’s a proven fact when it is not? Then, for those of us who don’t think it’s a fact based on other evidence or interpretation of evidence we are a bunch of stupid, ignorant religious fanatics. The evolutionists go around persecuting, slandering, silencing, and oppressing anyone who doesn’t agree with their version of origins. The hypocrisy and behavior is pathetic.
When it comes to data and evidence interpretation, watch the Star Trek: Voyager episode “Living Witness”. It illustrates my point perfectly. Wiki Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Witness
In regard to the discussion on the Resurrection, you wrote:
“People believing something doesn’t make it true, countless messiahs and prophets have had followers, many of whom followed them to their deaths. Nor does people being willing to die for something, people die for falsehoods and every religion has martyrs. The reason someone believing something isn’t compelling is that people don’t just believe true or rational things. And this was especially true thousands of years ago when everything was considered magical.”
You absolutely missed my point. The case of Jesus is completely different from what you write. The followers of Jesus didn’t just “believe” the Resurrection happened. They saw Him die on the cross. They saw Him after He rose from the dead. Thomas touched the scars of the nails and scarred spear wound in His side. They talked to Him, ate with Him, and were prepared by Him to be witnesses to share the good news to the world. Of course that good news is that we can be saved from God’s wrath (because of our criminal behavior) by trusting and following Him.
Again you missed my point about the disciples being tortured and killed for what they were teaching about Jesus. Sure, all those people willing to die for what they believe is true about religions. But, those people believe their religion is true. The disciples on the other hand were tortured and killed for something they knew to be true first hand. They saw it with their own eyes and touched Jesus with their own hands. They knew it was true, and they died horrible deaths because they taught it.
Now on the flip side, if it was not true (a lie), none of the disciples would have allowed themselves to be brutally tortured and killed for something that they knew first hand was a lie. There is no way all eleven apostles plus over a hundred people who witnessed the ministry of Christ first hand would have been psychotic to the point of believing a lie unto torturous death.
Another example is the Roman soldiers who were guarding the tomb where Jesus’ body had been laid. The penalty for failure in their duty was death (side note: Just like the Roman’s soldiers who executed Jesus. If Jesus would have survived they would have been crucified themselves). After the Resurrection, the Jewish authorities bribed them to lie and assured them that they would speak with the governor so they didn’t get put to death (Matthew 28:11-15). Why would the enemies of Jesus have to bribe soldiers to lie (who guarded the tomb) at the risk of their own deaths if they were so sure Jesus did not rise from the dead? What does the evidence point to? That Jesus really did rise from the dead.
And it could be said that just because people believe in Evolution, doesn’t mean it’s true. There are a lot of assumptions, guesses, and pieces of the paradigm that has to be taken on faith. You have to trust its true without ever having the ability to prove it.
You wrote:
“Nothing about accepting evolution necessitates believing anything about cosmology or whether the universe was created (darwin believed in a creator and said so in On The Origin Of Species), and I have never in my life met someone who claims “the universe developed out of nothing”. I am honestly so sick of this crap being put into our mouths.”
I understand what you are saying, but I think you are mistaken. Not completely but in part. Sure, people can believe whatever they want about how the universe began. But, science teaches and Evolutionists (maybe not you) link Evolution to the Big Bang in that the universe formed, the solar system formed, the planet formed, life began on Earth all taking place over billions of years (though many admit there really isn’t enough time taking into account the chances [huge massive mind boggling number of its improbability] of life developing). It is one big model that the majority of the scientific community clings too.
Now, when I say that the universe developed out of nothing, it’s a scientific fact that matter and energy do not just spontaneously create themselves. The Big Bang claims somehow matter and energy (enough for the entire universe) just suddenly erupted out of nothing and the universe was created. That is a general statement and I know there are those scientists that are trying to figure out just what exactly happened because of the contradiction. I believe an Intelligent Designer caused the Big Bang. The First Cause was God.
You wrote:
“The planet is actually moving very, very fast and is not in the same spot it was five seconds ago, nor is there anything special about it’s location.”
Yes I know. Our galaxy is moving through the universe. The sun is moving around the center of the galaxy. The earth is moving around our sun. What I meant was the location of the earth in relation to our sun and galaxy. Not that the earth is literally stationary. I know it is not some “special” singular spot.
You wrote:
“You are not qualified to assess the probability of the formation of life, to do so you would have to know the dynamics that gave rise to it – dynamics you claim do not exist. As for the likelihood that life would evolve a particular way it is equally likely regardless of the outcome so the probability, while interesting, is irrelevant.”
This is a ridiculous statement. I’m not qualified? I’m not the one who assessed the number. It was the scientific community that calculated the probability of life forming on the Earth. Dynamics I claim do not exist? Actually you’d have to tell me what I said doesn’t exist. All I said is there is no evidence for Macroevolution. You don’t know what I think beyond that.
The probability of life forming on the Earth in relation to all of the variables and “dynamics” involved for such an event to take place is very relevant to this discussion. It is especially relevant to the age of the earth. Some scientists admit that 4.5 billion years is simply not enough time. So they start looking for other explanation like life being seeded on the planet somehow. They say that perhaps by meteors or even aliens. So if I was to compare the probability of life forming to the probability of ERVs landing on their own in particular places of two different animals who share the exact same environment… it would be like me trying to avoid paying taxes.
It is very possible, however improbable, that 60 ERVs in chimps and humans did land in the exact same places. We have to trust the scientists who claim that are telling the truth, which I really doubt. I don’t believe one word that evolutionary scientists say unless I conduct the expirements and observe the data for myself. And if they did land there on their own, we don’t know everything about viruses. They very well could have purposely landed where they did in two separate animals.
You wrote:
“Tell me, what is the probability of an all-knowing, all-loving, omnipotent, infallible god just existing for no reason and then creating such an improbable universe? Care to put a number on that one?”
I couldn’t put a number on that. But it is much more likely that there was an Intelligent Designer than a universe suddenly coming into existence from nothing… spontaneously… for no reason. And because there is plenty of reliable and historical evidence that Jesus was in fact Resurrected, I’ll be happy to trust His word on the subject of God’s identity and origins of the universe.
You wrote: “That is because “kind” has no scientific or biblical definition.”
Actually you are wrong. A “kind” is types of animals in the Biblical definition. You have dogs, cats, humans etc. They all belong to a kind of animal, which is really a group. I’ll explain a bit of what I believe in regard to this. I believe the Adaption Theory. There isn’t an “official” theory, but it is my hypothesis. I believe that God created the animals and humanity. And due to the intelligently designed ability for animals, plants, and humans etc to adapt to our environments that is why there are so many varieties of each kind. The variety also includes breeding/reproduction patterns. Similar to the Evolutionary tree of life (I do understand that concept), but in the Adaption Theory it would be multiple trees. It is one tree for each kind of animal. So the original “cats” would become the variety of cats that we have today big and small. That line of adaption coming down through time would never branch off and become another type of animal. They have been and always will be cat kind. See Genesis 1:11-25.
You wrote:
“There are countless intermediate forms in the fossil record. We have pre-sonar bats, we have pre-shell turtles, we have snakes with legs, we have whales with legs. We have birds with claws in their wings (specifically predicted by darwin two years before they were discovered), we have horses with multiple toes, we have intermediates between mammals and reptiles, dinosaurs and birds, and humans and primates. We have intermediates here and there, we have intermediates everywhere.”
All of those examples fit right into the Adaption theory. I agree that there can definitely be mutations and changes in the animal “kind.” But for Macroevolution there is absolutely nothing in the fossil record. Not to mention how the fossil record is different depending on where you dig. You will never see a turtle rabbit, whale crocodiles, bat hawks, horse cows, so on and so forth.
What you do have in intermediates for primates and humans is full of fraud, fakes, lies, misidentification, and ridiculous conclusions. I’m sure that is just as true between the others like mammals and reptiles, dinosaurs and birds etc. Not to mention all the work that has been done to hide the truth about other findings that goes against the Evolutionary religion. Of course I am being satirical calling it a religion. It takes a whole lot of blind faith to believe in Evolution. Here is another website that talks about it.
http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionfraud.html
You wrote:
“That isn’t the way evolution works, there is no mechanism ever proposed that would allow a member of one species to turn into a member of another modern species.”
Again, I was being satirical. I know saying that makes Evolutionists rage and yell “Idiot! Stupid! Ignorant religious fanatic!” I always get a laugh out of that.
Let me ask you this. If Macroevolution is true as you claim, then it would be possible (however small) that a cat could eventually evolve into something similar to a dog. It might get so close in appearance and all, you’d have to go to the DNA level to determine if it was or wasn’t a dog. After all, mutations could happen in response to environment and survival of the fittest. Then it would be true what Dr. Peter Venkman said, “…dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!” What if dogs became extinct and cats that evolved into their millions of years from now future selves could be mistaken for a dog! Even the words could get changed around due to the evolution of languages.
I’d like to make one last comment. In Darwin’s day, they thought that a cell was a simple bag of goo with a membrane. They had no idea a single cell was so vastly complex. W. H. Thorpe, an evolutionist scientist, acknowledges that “The most elementary type of cell constitutes a ‘mechanism’ unimaginably more complex than any machine yet thought up, let alone constructed, by man.” If Darwin was alive today I think he would be looking at you believers of Evolution with disapproval. There is no way it “evolved” due to the principle of “irreducible complexity.” I have as yet heard any professor, scientist, or thinker legitimately be able to argue against it. All they can do is insult, ridicule, and show their arrogance. You see, a cell needs all its parts to live. If you take the cell’s systems away a piece/mutation at a time (evolution in the opposite direction) the cell will die. Take one system out of a human, and the human will die. We must have every single system in our body to live in this environment. So the first human must have all his/her parts starting out. You can find countless examples of this. One of the simplest is the mouse trap. Take any one part away and it’s no longer a functioning mouse trap.
The fully functional adult with all its systems comes first.
Here is a website you can read: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
I respect that you believe in Evolution. I appreciate that you appear to have worked hard studying and all to understand it and make your own conclusions. I enjoy discussing and debating it. But don’t go around ridiculing and laughing at other people just because they believe something different. There have been massive amounts of excellent research and work done by legitimate, extremely intelligent scientists on the subject of Intelligent Design. There is a lot of work done by the same too on the problems with the hypothesis of Evolution. Think about it, you admit, that the conclusions of Evolutionists could be wrong. You could be wrong. I could be wrong.
“Hi Agnophilo,
Thank you for the feedback on my article.”
You’re welcome, thanks for getting back to me.
“I appreciate the lesson on the scientific theory, but I am very familiar with science and proper scientific investigation. Sadly, there are many scientists who go beyond what is acceptable. For example, many postulate that Evolution is fact. It is a hypothesis,”
A hypothesis is an un-tested hypothetical explanation. Whether you accept evolution or not after 150 years of experiments and criticism it is not un-tested. Even the pope said it is not a mere hypothesis. It is a theory, and in science there is nothing higher than theory outside of the realm of mathematics. The term theory and fact are also not incompatible, gravity is a theory, fact (in the everyday sense) and a law. The theory (several theories actually) attempt to explain the fact that things fall toward the earth and other bodies and the law describes the constant property of gravity. That life evolves is a fact. That it has been evolving for a long time is as much a fact as that languages have undergone great changes over time. There are “fossil” remains of both.
“and in reality cannot be proven to be true 100%.”
Nothing can be proven 100%.
“No one can go back in time and observe what are only assumptions and guesses. This is fact.”
No, it’s a talking point. Something happening in the past does not make it an assumption or a guess, as evidenced by criminal forensic science. You can test a hypothesis about a past event if you know enough about the present and have actual evidence of the event in question. Should only eye witness testimony be used in criminal trials? Should judges say “sure you’ve got all this DNA and fingerprint evidence, blood spatter analysis and you can pinpoint the time of death to within an hour during which my client was unaccounted for – but all those things happened in the past and you can’t support claims about the past.”? Should we adopt your standard in the real world and deal with the consequences, or is it flawed?
“Now the “evidence” and scientific findings can be used to support such a hypothesis in some ways, but scientific findings can often be interpreted in different ways.”
Which is why science is based on tests and predictions, not simply interpreting evidence once you have it. Science is not, despite what creationist websites promote, simply a matter of opinion. If that were so then going to a hospital would just as likely kill you as save your life, and airplanes would be falling out of the sky all the time. The scientific method works very well, and it does so because it’s designed to remove bias and opinion from the process. You make your prediction (which has the potential to falsify your theory if wrong), do your test and live with the results.
“Evolutionists will interpret their data one way, and others can interpret it another. Plus, the scientific community is full of corruption, fraud, bias, and oppression of freedom of thought.”
It really isn’t. Creationists just have no other way to respond to the global consensus on subjects like evolution than to claim a global conspiracy. The fact is even christian scientists are overwhelmingly against a literal interpretation of genesis. Even in countries that are overwhelmingly christian. Who is persecuting them? The secular minority? It defies simple mathematics. It’s like people in norway claiming that christians are secretly in control of the government. It’s absurd.
“The freedom of inquiry and new ideas are being crushed under foot. The crazed evolutionists of today are just as bad as the Catholic Church when they persecuted scientists.”
List for me the scientists in the US who have been imprisoned or threatened with death (by an official institution not by some random nut) for questioning evolution and your comparison is justified. Until you do it is not. Christians tend to think they are persecuted simply because they do not get special priveleges, or equate persecution with not being able to violate other peoples’ rights. Nobody can promote a religious view in public schools? Christians are being persecuted! Ever notice that hindus, muslims, atheists, jews etc never claim they’re persecuted for having to follow the same rules?
“There are plenty of examples of scientific fraud. We can’t trust scientists anymore.”
There are like a whopping two examples and a lot of examples creationist websites spin as fraud that aren’t (I will discuss this further below). The level of bias and spin on creationist websites is pretty extreme and is evident in your attitudes. You think that if 5 scientists support x view and 5 support y view that rather than them genuinely agreeing the ones that support x view (assuming it’s the one you agree with) are champions of truth who are being persecuted by the other 5 scientists who are conspiring to promote the lie of y hypothesis which they know is false, but want to promote anyway to be evil and sinister, mwahahaha! Do you honestly think the world is divided up that way? Disagree with evolution all you want, but people who support it are overwhelmingly honest and genuinely agree with the theory. We aren’t batman villains conspiring to conceal the truth.
“Here is just one example of recent fraud: http://principia-scientific.org/supportnews/latest-news/206-un-global-warming-fraud-exposed-by-detailed-new-study.html”
About 95% of the information there comes from one guy who, while he is a genuine scientist, does not appear to have any background in climate science, meteorology, geology or anything related to these fields. And as far as I read I couldn’t find any example of fraud, it seems like he’s just bitching about some report he doesn’t agree with. People reaching a conclusion you don’t agree with is not the same thing as fraud. The article also refers to the “climategate” email “scandal” which was completely debunked. The “smoking gun” was two quotes taken out of context. The phrases “hide the decline” and “math trick” were used in a highly technical email which were spun as being deceptive. This was the only “evidence” found in hundreds of thousands of hacked emails. Turns out “math trick” just means a solution to a mathematic problem and “hide the decline” was in a technical description of tree rings that had nothing to do with global warming or temperatures.
“Fraud in the field of Evolution “science”: http://www.uark.edu/~cdm/creation/shame.htm”
Haeckel’s embryos – some of them were accurate, the ones he couldn’t obtain examples for he fudged which was, yes, a genuine scandal. Creationists often lie and claim that haeckel’s embryos were used in darwin’s On The Origin Of Species which is not true – while there was a section on embryology darwin published well before haeckel did. What creationists also ignore is that while the idea that species go through every past evolutionary transition in the womb is not correct the principle that “Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny” has proven overwhelmingly true. Whales start to grow four limbs in the womb and the hind limbs absorb back in to the body – many species (probably all of them) exhibit traits in the womb that they lack in adulthood. Humans for instance have tails in the womb and body-wide fur (even girls) called lanugo.
Piltdown man was also a genuine fraud – it was perpetuated by a non-scientist and kept in a private collection however, something conspiracy theorists often fail to mention.
The rest of the examples don’t contain a single example of fraud or deception. While it turns out vestigial organs perform some other function this makes perfect sense with regards to why the animal still has them. But who would deny that an absorbed limb is a vestige of a… well, limb? Who would deny that a bat’s wing is a modified arm when it has the same skeletal structures as a human arm including claws at the end of the fingers? That they ended up not being useless does not falsify evolution and was an honest misconception, not a lie. Do you think there is shame in being wrong and admitting it? The peppered moth section does not even make a single specific claim and simply implies dishonesty, which is pathetic. Micheal denton bypassed the peer review process altogether and is largely considered a quack scientist, and many of his claims about biology have been thoroughly eviscerated, including both his claim that species aren’t homologous on the genetic level and “irreducible complexity”. Here’s an old blog of mine if you want more info:
http://agnophilo.xanga.com/728670894/evolution-and-irreducible-complexity/
Miller-urey – That this experiment did not produce life is not surprising since the number of variables on earth is mind-boggling, and other experiments have shown that amino acids form readily in countless environments from freezing cold temperatures to boiling hot temperatures under pressure ranges from the bottom of the ocean to outer space, and caused by heat, eletricity, radiation etc. But to suppose that our inability to produce life easily means it did not occur naturally is simply unreasonable. For instance we know what chemicals RNA is made of and it still took us decades to figure out how to produce 2 of the 4 chemical components and when we did it turned out to be as simple as evaporation, rehydration and exposure to sunlight. The number of combinations and sequences of conditions is like a password, it has an almost infinite number of possible combinations. So yes, abiogenesis research is slow going. But it is going. I also like how they point out that miller’s experiment was based on flawed assumptions about the early conditions of earth then interpret his findings as being damning evidence against abiogenesis at the same time – this itself is the exact kind of intellectual dishonesty they claim to be against.
Nebraska man – an amateur paleontologist found a tooth and sent it to a museum and asked if it could be a primate tooth and the curator concluded it could *possibly* be a primate tooth (pig and primate teeth are similar and vary widely). Then a non-scientific publication writes an article about it with a picture of a cave man family and says both in the article and in the picture’s caption that the picture is simply a nice picture their art department came up with and probably looks nothing like the species the tooth came from – after which creationists for decades go around claiming that scientists lie and fabricate entire skeletons based on a single bone. Nothing of the sort happened. Again where is the scandal? As for the website in general if I gave a list of examples of religious fraud would that discredit all religious beliefs? If I gave a list of examples of christian fraud and christian con-men would it discredit christianity? I could easily generate thousands of examples, not a handful. I have personally had religious organizations attempt to con me with manufactured miracles, that is how pervasive christian fraud is. Should we therefore dismiss the bible? If not, why should I dismiss vast amounts of genuine evidence and real fossils and complete skeletons based on one or two examples of dishonesty?
“So the scientific community could be wrong about Evolution.”
It’s possible, but highly unlikely.
“Why not present it in that manner instead of demanding that everyone believe it’s a proven fact when it is not?”
It is presented in that manner, which creationists exploit with their “just a theory” rhetoric. Any well-written textbook explains upfront how science works and what theories are. Creationists demand that evolution be singled out and students be told that evolution specifically can’t be 100% proven, but that is deceptive – as one biologist pointed out that says to a 15 year old “we’re 100% sure about everything in this book except evolution”.
“Then, for those of us who don’t think it’s a fact based on other evidence or interpretation of evidence we are a bunch of stupid, ignorant religious fanatics.”
To be fair the vast, overwhelming majority of people and organizations who reject ideas like evolution and the big bang do so for religious reasons, and creationist organizations actively promote ignorance with their “if evolution were valid it would be a law by now” type of misleading spin.
“The evolutionists go around persecuting, slandering, silencing, and oppressing anyone who doesn’t agree with their version of origins.”
I’ll give you the occasional slandering, but everything else is hogwash. And it’s not like creationists don’t slander people who accept evolution, they routinely equate us with nazis and re-write history so that evolution is singularly to blame for the holocaust and slavery, which is of course ridiculous, and go further than that to assert that anyone who accepts evolution is liable to go do evil things. You just in your response have made many charges that people you disagree with aren’t just wrong but deliberately perpetrating a fraud. Isn’t that slander?
“The hypocrisy and behavior is pathetic.”
I recommend looking into the accounts of “persecution” critically.
“When it comes to data and evidence interpretation, watch the Star Trek: Voyager episode “Living Witness”. It illustrates my point perfectly. Wiki Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Witness”
I haven’t seen it but yes reconstructing anything historic is going to be prone to error and must be done with care. However scientists aren’t in the habit of making claims they can’t support, and when they do they catch hell for it.
“You absolutely missed my point. The case of Jesus is completely different from what you write. The followers of Jesus didn’t just “believe” the Resurrection happened.”
Yes they did. Belief is subjective, knowledge is demonstrable. In other words if I experience being abducted by aliens I will believe aliens are real and abduct people. But I only “know” I was abducted by aliens if I can prove it to someone else. If I have documentation or evidence of some sort. If I die for my belief that proves I believe it, not that it is true. People die for things all the time, and not nearly all of it is true or valid. Look into “miracle men” in india, there are countless examples of them. Sathya Sai Baba was one of the more popular ones, he had hundreds of thousands of witnesses to his “miracles”. If some of them are willing to die for him does it prove they were miracles?
“They saw Him die on the cross. They saw Him after He rose from the dead.”
At least that’s how the story goes. Harry potter saw that voldemort had risen from the death with his own eyes and told others despite facing ridicule and losing all of his friends. Why would he stick to his story if it wasn’t true? Therefore it must have really happened. See the flaw in reasoning here? It assumes the text which recounts the story is itself accurate, then tries to conclude other things are true based on common sense and plot consistency. Isn’t it possible that the apostles were executed regardless and were turned into martyrs posthumously? Or that they believed based on a misconception? Or that the whole thing was made up? You believe that all of scientists everywhere are conspiring to keep the falsehood of evolution a secret, why not believe that a handful of people conspired to keep the falsehood of the claims about jesus a secret?
“Thomas touched the scars of the nails and scarred spear wound in His side. They talked to Him, ate with Him, and were prepared by Him to be witnesses to share the good news to the world. Of course that good news is that we can be saved from God’s wrath (because of our criminal behavior) by trusting and following Him.”
Again according to the story. Why doesn’t your star trek voyager analogy apply to events that happened 2,000 years ago? Your argument seems to assert that if x is true then y must logically be true. But x might not be true.
“Again you missed my point about the disciples being tortured and killed for what they were teaching about Jesus. Sure, all those people willing to die for what they believe is true about religions. But, those people believe their religion is true. The disciples on the other hand were tortured and killed for something they knew to be true first hand. They saw it with their own eyes and touched Jesus with their own hands. They knew it was true, and they died horrible deaths because they taught it.”
Depends what you mean by belief and knowledge. I don’t know how someone could know that somebody ascended bodily into heaven – and don’t the people who wrote about mohammad “know” that he flew off into the sky? It boils down to something is true because people said it was true.
“Now on the flip side, if it was not true (a lie),”
It could just as simply be an error or the equivalent of an urban legend which is repeated by honest people who simply think it is compelling or important.
“none of the disciples would have allowed themselves to be brutally tortured and killed for something that they knew first hand was a lie.”
You aren’t allowing for any middle-ground where they simply believed he was the messiah and it wasn’t so. Bear in mind jesus could’ve been raised to think he was the messiah and, like many believers of many faiths felt connected to what he called god or the holy spirit but what atheists simply call their conscience or intuition or some aspect or aspects of their inner workings. Jesus could have in other words been himself a genuine believer. It’s not the “messiah or con man” dichotomy evangelists promote (usually to guilt people brought up in a christian system into not saying anything bad about jesus and therefore going along with their position)
“There is no way all eleven apostles plus over a hundred people who witnessed the ministry of Christ first hand would have been psychotic to the point of believing a lie unto torturous death.”
You don’t have to be a psychopath to believe something in error, everyone believes something in error, and whatever religious position is true 3/4ths of the world are in error. The position that they simply couldn’t have been wrong is not compelling to me.
“Another example is the Roman soldiers who were guarding the tomb where Jesus’ body had been laid. The penalty for failure in their duty was death (side note: Just like the Roman’s soldiers who executed Jesus. If Jesus would have survived they would have been crucified themselves).”
Yes, no one ever does anything punishable by death, especially soldiers.
“After the Resurrection, the Jewish authorities bribed them to lie and assured them that they would speak with the governor so they didn’t get put to death (Matthew 28:11-15). Why would the enemies of Jesus have to bribe soldiers to lie (who guarded the tomb) at the risk of their own deaths if they were so sure Jesus did not rise from the dead?”
Why would they bribe them? They didn’t want to give credence to what they viewed as dangerous heresy. That doesn’t mean it’s true any more than the censorship of the catholic church over other sects proves the doctrine of those other sects.
“What does the evidence point to? That Jesus really did rise from the dead.”
None of that logically points to jesus rising from the dead. If we went to dig up thomas jefferson and his body wasn’ there would that prove he was a vampire? That is the same sort of leap of logic.
“And it could be said that just because people believe in Evolution, doesn’t mean it’s true.”
The popularity of an idea has nothing to do with it’s legitimacy.
“There are a lot of assumptions, guesses, and pieces of the paradigm that has to be taken on faith. You have to trust its true without ever having the ability to prove it.”
This is not the case, it’s creationist rhetoric. While some ideas are speculation, ie “maybe this fish species is getting smaller due to natural selection favoring ones small enough to slip through fishermen’s nets”, the reason scientists feel comfortable making such speculations in specific cases is that the underlying mechanisms and principles have been so thoroughly proven.
“I understand what you are saying, but I think you are mistaken. Not completely but in part. Sure, people can believe whatever they want about how the universe began. But, science teaches and Evolutionists (maybe not you) link Evolution to the Big Bang
in that the universe formed, the solar system formed, the planet formed,”
These are different ideas developed independently by different scientists using completely independent lines of evidence. Creationists lump them all together and call them “evolutionism” and claim they are one unified ideology simply to avoid dealing with the fact that they are not. That what christian physicists and christian biologists and christian geneticists and christian geologists and christians in many other fields have discovered over the last several centuries all converges and paints the same picture of natural history. To quote the previous pope:
“Today, almost half a century after publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”
“life began on Earth all taking place over billions of years (though many admit there really isn’t enough time taking into account the chances [huge massive mind boggling number of its improbability] of life developing).”
See the bias in how you describe it? The scientists who agree with you “admit” the truth while the rest continue to lie about it. As for the probability of life arising we don’t know what early life would’ve been like, so to assess it’s probability is impossible.
“It is one big model that the majority of the scientific community clings too.”
Your depiction of scientists huddling together desperately trying to prop up abiogenesis is a fiction. The reality is the it is only creationists who place special emphasis on abiogenesis, to the rest of the world it’s just a “maybe”.
“Now, when I say that the universe developed out of nothing, it’s a scientific fact that matter and energy do not just spontaneously create themselves.”
Actually it was a law, and “laws” of science get “broken” all the time. New vacuum experiments suggest that emptiness is actually quite unstable and that it spontaneously produces measurable particles and energy. Whether these particles are somehow being produced from somewhere else by quantum wormholes or bleeding through from another dimension or whatever is yet to be seen, but the idea that you cannot get something out of nothing or that you can’t produce matter/energy is not as certain as it once was. And no, scientists are not clinging to this in hopes that it will destroy christianity so they can finally burn all the bibles and gay marry the pope to justin beiber, or whatever caricature you want to spin. It’s just a new discovery.
“The Big Bang claims somehow matter and energy (enough for the entire universe) just suddenly erupted out of nothing and the universe was created.”
No, it claims that the matter we already know exists was once closer together and spread (and is spreading) apart. It makes no claims about whether the matter came from or if it even came from anywhere or anything.
“That is a general statement and I know there are those scientists that are trying to figure out just what exactly happened because of the contradiction.”
What contradiction?
“I believe an Intelligent Designer caused the Big Bang. The First Cause was God.”
So the big bang is bad science and ridiculous and unfounded and god caused it? As for myself the big bang very well could’ve been caused by an intelligent being. Or several. Maybe there’s an entire species in another universe that created our universe through mastery of science. Or maybe the universe itself is intelligent in a way we cannot comprehend. Maybe that is what is really “god”. But this is speculation, so I make no claims about it.
“Yes I know. Our galaxy is moving through the universe. The sun is moving around the center of the galaxy. The earth is moving around our sun. What I meant was the location of the earth in relation to our sun and galaxy. Not that the earth is literally stationary. I know it is not some “special” singular spot.”
Our planet is in a wonky elliptical orbit that varies in terms of it’s distance from the sun by around 10 million kilometers in a given year (roughly a thousand times the width of the earth). Hardly a razor’s edge we’re sitting on in terms of distance.
“This is a ridiculous statement. I’m not qualified? I’m not the one who assessed the number.”
I should have been more specific – no one is qualified.
“It was the scientific community that calculated the probability of life forming on the Earth.”
These calculations are highly speculative and I’ve never found one that is impossible when you consider the number of galaxies/solar systems. What figure are you referring to? One famous one estimate suggests roughly 30,000 earth-like planets in our galaxy alone (one of around 10-100 billion observable galaxies) simply based on random configuration of planets.
“Dynamics I claim do not exist? Actually you’d have to tell me what I said doesn’t exist.”
You are making claims about the dynamics of the origins of life, a process you claim never happened and is impossible.
“All I said is there is no evidence for Macroevolution. You don’t know what I think beyond that.”
If I get your views wrong it is not deliberate, please correct me. And of course there is plenty of evidence for macro-evolution, but we’ve been over that.
“The probability of life forming on the Earth in relation to all of the variables and “dynamics” involved for such an event to take place is very relevant to this discussion.”
Relevant, but impossible to know. And it’s not relevant to evolution, which is not in any way dependent on abiogenesis or in conflict with special creation (in and of itself).
“It is especially relevant to the age of the earth. Some scientists admit that 4.5 billion years is simply not enough time.”
They don’t “admit” it isn’t enough time, are of that opinion.
“So they start looking for other explanation like life being seeded on the planet somehow. They say that perhaps by meteors or even aliens.”
Ideas like panspermia are not rationalizations of other ideas, they are simply explored because they are possibly true. Meteors fall to earth with in-tact organic material inside them, microbes can survive long term exposure to the hazards of space and all meteors impacting the earth are traveling faster than the escape velocity required break loose of earth’s gravity and could propel debris to other planets. It’s a legitimate field of inquiry.
“So if I was to compare the probability of life forming to the probability of ERVs landing on their own in particular places of two different animals who share the exact same environment… it would be like me trying to avoid paying taxes.”
I still don’t get the tax analogy but something we know the nature and dynamics of and something we don’t are simply not comparable. You have to know something about a thing to assess any kind of probability.
“It is very possible, however improbable, that 60 ERVs in chimps and humans did land
in the exact same places.”
So because anything is technically possible anything is therefore believable – except for evolution or common ancestry or anything you don’t want to accept.
“We have to trust the scientists who claim that are telling the truth, which I really doubt.”
But people who made claims about jesus in the iron age they’re totally credible. Except the ones who said he wasn’t the messiah, they’re all liars. I’m sorry but to me supernatural claims in the era of greek mythology are a little less credible than peer reviewed experiments in the age of curing diseases and putting men on the moon.
“I don’t believe one word that evolutionary scientists say unless I conduct the expirements and observe the data for myself.”
And of course you won’t bother doing that, so evolution is false.
“And if they did land there on their own, we don’t know everything about viruses. They very well could have purposely landed where they did in two separate animals.”
I already responded to this.
“I couldn’t put a number on that.”
Why not?
“But it is much more likely that there was an Intelligent Designer than”
You can’t assess the probability of thing A or thing B, but you know one is more probable than the other. You see no error in this thinking?
“a universe suddenly coming into existence from nothing… spontaneously… for no reason.”
Again, this is a strawman. I do not make any claims about where the universe or matter or energy came from, I don’t think anyone understands these things (including you). You are putting words in my mouth that neither I nor anyone I’ve ever heard of would ever say. I’ve told you this, you ignore me and do it anyway.
If we were having this conversation 2,000 years ago and you believed in zeus, my not knowing where lightning came from would not justify your belief that zeus makes it. Nor would simply saying “zeus makes it” explain lightning since you would have to explain how zeus makes it, what zeus is, where zeus came from and how zeus got the ability to make lightning to begin with. Attributing something to a deity does not explain it. And saying “well you believe lightning flies out of a monkey’s butt and that’s stupid!” would also not justify the zeus hypothesis. Not understanding something does not give us license to make stuff up about it.
“And because there is plenty of reliable and historical evidence that Jesus was in fact Resurrected, I’ll be happy to trust His word on the subject of God’s identity and origins of the universe.”
The number of miracle claims from the age of zeus and thor and jesus is astonishing. I don’t believe the ones about jesus for the same reasons you don’t believe the ones about zeus and thor and the thousands of other gods. That someone died for their beliefs to me just proves they believed it, not that it is true. And people believe all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. It is astonishing to me how much trust you put in apostles you never met, and how much sinister intent you assume about scientists you’ve never met. You’re loaded with so much bias and don’t see it.
“Actually you are wrong. A “kind” is types of animals in the Biblical definition.”
That’s not a definition, it’s a synonym. And it is not specific enough to mean anything.
“You have dogs, cats, humans etc. They all belong to a kind of animal, which is really a group. I’ll explain a bit of what I believe in regard to this. I believe the Adaption Theory. There isn’t an “official” theory, but it is my hypothesis. I believe that God created the animals and humanity. And due to the intelligently designed ability for animals, plants, and humans etc to adapt to our environments that is why there are so many varieties of each kind. The variety also includes breeding/reproduction patterns. Similar to the Evolutionary tree of life (I do understand that concept), but in the Adaption Theory it would be multiple trees. It is one tree for each kind of animal. So the original “cats” would become the variety of cats that we have today big and small. That line of adaption coming down through time would never branch off and become another type of animal. They have been and always will be cat kind. See Genesis 1:11-25.”
First of all there is a lot of hypocrisy in being hyper-critical of science while then turning around and making up a bunch of things off of the top of your head and accepting them with no experiments or tests of any kind. The bar for science is impossibly high and the bar for theology is incredibly low. This is bias. Second, the bible does not say what the “kinds” are, they could be cats and dogs or they could be mammals (which includes both cats and dogs) and reptiles. Or they could be vertibrates and invertibrates. Or they could be plants and animals. Or they could be eukaryotes and prokaryotes and the third one I don’t care to look up. The bible doesn’t say, and your decision that the bible means x and not y is arbitrary. You are deciding for god what he means to say.
[“There are countless intermediate forms in the fossil record. We have pre-sonar bats, we have pre-shell turtles, we have snakes with legs, we have whales with legs. We have birds with claws in their wings (specifically predicted by darwin two years before they were discovered), we have horses with multiple toes, we have intermediates between mammals and reptiles, dinosaurs and birds, and humans and primates. We have intermediates here and there, we have intermediates everywhere.”]
“All of those examples fit right into the Adaption theory.”
Intermediates between birds and dinosaurs and mammals and reptiles fit in with adaptation theory? And by the way it’s not a scientific theory.
“I agree that there can definitely be mutations and changes in the animal “kind.”
It’s worth mentioning that creationists vehemently denied this was possible until very recently. I’m sure you’ve seen the “all mutations are harmful” and “tornado in a junkyard” type rhetoric.
“But for Macroevolution there is absolutely nothing in the fossil record.”
That is simply not true.
“Not to mention how the fossil record is different depending on where you dig.”
And different areas have different animals. This matters why? What species live in an area changes over time, this is not the same thing as the fossil record contradicting itself.
“You will never see a turtle rabbit, whale crocodiles, bat hawks, horse cows, so on and so forth.”
Nor should you. This is like saying that heredity is a lie because I haven’t seen someone that is half one famous actor and half another famous actor. It statements like this that make people call creationists ignorant and stupid.
“What you do have in intermediates for primates and humans is full of fraud, fakes, lies, misidentification, and ridiculous conclusions.”
You’ve listed one hominid fraud (which was debunked by scientists by the way, not creationists). Show me the rest. As for misidentification yes scientists make errors. The evidence is still there and plentiful. Do you honestly think every fossil is a forgery? Do you think that little of your fellow man? Or is it just non-believers? Do you believe I am conspiring to hurt you?
“I’m sure that is just as true between the others like mammals and reptiles, dinosaurs and birds etc.”
Well if you’re just going to make shit up why not make it interesting and believe that fossils were brought here by aliens or something.
“Not to mention all the work that has been done to hide the truth about other findings that goes against the Evolutionary religion.”
The notion of millions of creationists freely exchanging information over the internet without a single threat of violence or imprisonment are being “suppressed” is absurd. You wouldn’t know actual persecution from a hole in the ground. Ironically organizations like the discovery institute claim that nazi germany was built around the ideas of darwin and freud when in reality both of their writings were burned in the streets and darwin’s writings are to this day on the lists of banned books. Darwin’s ideas were suppressed. Yours are not. At least not in any western democracy.
“Of course I am being satirical calling it a religion. It takes a whole lot of blind faith to believe in Evolution. Here is another website that talks about it.”
I’ve addressed this, you just keep repeating it.
“http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionfraud.html”
Same junk as your other link with the exception of archeoraptor (which had been called into question and not accepted anywhere by paleontologists before it was promoted by National Geographic, a non-expert, non-peer reviewed publication meant for the general public). A magazine not run by experts got something wrong, big whup. And a museum filled in some missing parts to a skeleton. OMG the conspiracy runs as high as museum curators!
“Again, I was being satirical. I know saying that makes Evolutionists rage and yell “Idiot! Stupid! Ignorant religious fanatic!” I always get a laugh out of that.”
Yes, when creationists say ignorant and stupid things and espouse extreme religious views they get called ignorant, stupid and fanatic. Weird, huh?
“Let me ask you this. If Macroevolution is true as you claim, then it would be possible (however small) that a cat could eventually evolve into something similar to a dog.”
A cat already is something similar to a dog.
“It might get so close in appearance and all, you’d have to go to the DNA level to determine if it was or wasn’t a dog. After all, mutations could happen in response to environment and survival of the fittest. Then it would be true what Dr. Peter Venkman said, “…dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!” What if dogs became extinct and cats that evolved into their millions of years from now future selves could be mistaken for a dog! Even the words could get changed around due to the evolution of languages.”
I know you think you’re being clever but you’re proposing something absurd that is absurd according to what you are arguing against.
“I’d like to make one last comment. In Darwin’s day, they thought that a cell was a simple bag of goo with a membrane. They had no idea a single cell was so vastly complex. W. H. Thorpe, an evolutionist scientist, acknowledges that “The most elementary type of cell constitutes a ‘mechanism’ unimaginably more complex than any machine yet thought up, let alone constructed, by man.”
There are supercomputers that can perform more calculations per second than there are atoms in the most complex cell in nature. The statement about being more complex than any machine is a bit outdated and depends largely on what you mean by complexity.
“If Darwin was alive today I think he would be looking at you believers of Evolution with disapproval.”
I doubt it.
“There is no way it “evolved” due to the principle of “irreducible complexity.”
See my above link. Irreducible complexity by the way comes from a book written for a lay religious audience containing false claims and ideas that had not been subject to any kind of peer review or empirical tests before they were bandied about as fact. He claimed the bacteria flagellum could not be reduced and still function – turns out you can take away almost all of it’s parts and it still functions. But then until you get your PhD in molecular biology and perform the experiment yourself this is just a coverup by the evil atheist biology consortium, right?
“I have as yet heard any professor, scientist, or thinker legitimately be able to argue against it.”
You need to get out more.
“All they can do is insult, ridicule, and show their arrogance. You see, a cell needs all its parts to live. If you take the cell’s systems away a piece/mutation at a time (evolution in the opposite direction) the cell will die. Take one system out of a human, and the human will die. We must have every single system in our body to live in this environment.”
Except for our appendix, tonsils, one lung, one kidney, half of our liver, our gall bladder etc, etc. If you read the blog I linked to you know the logical problem with irreducible complexity but if you want more concrete examples by all means do what I did when I heard this argument and google “lung evolution”, “heart evolution” etc. You will be amazed at the stuff we know about how these organs evolved, largely by the fact that primitive versions (of all kinds of varieties) often still exist in other organisms. Here is an especially elegant example of the fallacy of irreducible complexity using the eye, an example often heralded by ID advocates as unevolvable (based on distorting a quote by darwin).
“So the first human must have all his/her parts starting out.”
A human has a four chambered heart. If no ancestor could survive with a 3 chambered heart why do reptiles and amphibians do just fine with one? And fish thrive with a two-chambered heart. And jellyfish thrive with no heart at all. Me thinks there’s a problem in your logic. Also to use a technological example something that is not necessary to a system can become necessary. For instance in computers 30 years ago there were no hard drives. Now no modern computer could function without one. Computers were designed by gradual, incremental modifications of precursor designs which similarly lead to irreducibly complex structures. Now modern versions of computers that needed disk drives to read the operating system don’t even have disk drives, relying on USB ports instead. So too the fact that modern mammals need a heart to survive doesn’t mean some more primitive organism did, and many organisms don’t have hearts and get by just fine. And the lymph system is analogous to what an early circulatory system might have been. Lymph is the fluid in your body that isn’t blood, and it circulates just like your blood but has no central pump. It’s a circulatory system without a heart. So how does it circulate? As a byproduct of our musculature. When you flex a muscle it shifts some of your lymph fluid around. The first heart in a primitive fish may have been an elongated blood vessel that circulated blood when muscles pressed on it – the faster the fish swims the faster it’s “heart” beats. Then natural selection can modify and specialize it and make it more complex to meet the needs of organisms in changing environments, as evidenced by the differences in hearts between different “kinds”, which are of course in one sense the same “kind”.
“You can find countless examples of this. One of the simplest is the mouse trap. Take any one part away and it’s no longer a functioning mouse trap.”
Remember that article you linked to bashing homology and pointing out that even a crappy remnant of a limb can perform some function in the organism? Don’t you see how that flies in the face of this “all or nothing” anti-evolution argument that everything must be fully formed to be useful?
“The fully functional adult with all its systems comes first.”
Where does the fully functional god come from?
“Here is a website you can read: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html”
You realize that’s a pro-evolution site critical of him, right?
“I respect that you believe in Evolution. I appreciate that you appear to have worked hard studying and all to understand it and make your own conclusions. I enjoy discussing and debating it.”
Likewise, though your sources appear to be heavily one-sided.
“But don’t go around ridiculing and laughing at other people just because they believe something different.”
I don’t do this. I will occasionally lose my temper with someone but that’s usually due to low blood sugar and/or that person being a total douchebag. I do reserve the right to criticize anything someone says, but I try very hard not to resort to generalizations and ad hominems. I realize you take all kinds of crap from people on the other side of the debate but you wouldn’t believe the crap we get from fundamentalists. Here’s an example.
We also have to put up with a steady stream of lies from evangelists and evangelical websites like the ones you linked to, and people who repeat the same lies after they’re shown that they are lies. The same way you told me what I believe after I told you I don’t.
“There have been massive amounts of excellent research and work done by legitimate, extremely intelligent scientists on the subject of Intelligent Design.”
There are lots of religious scientists and scientists who believe in an intelligent designer who have done good scientific work, but intelligent design is not a scientific concept and cannot be empirically tested. Even arguments like irreducible complexity have nothing to do with proving intelligent design and are simply attacks on evolution. You can’t prove x by disproving y, that’s not how science works. There may be an intelligent designer, but the idea can’t be tested because it has no parameters. An intelligent designer could design life or the universe any way it wanted, so what could possibly be inconsistent with it? It can’t be tested and is widely considered, even by christian scientists, to be a philosophical issue, not a scientific one. And organizations like the discovery institute have done a poor job of hiding their real reasons for promoting ID.
“There is a lot of work done by the same too on the problems with the hypothesis of Evolution. Think about it, you admit, that the conclusions of Evolutionists could be wrong. You could be wrong. I could be wrong.”
I’m glad you said you could be wrong too. And yes, it could be wrong. But I don’t think it is. And criticisms of evolution are welcome, it’s how the theory has improved so much since darwin’s day. Creationists like to quote people criticizing this or that part of evolution as if it’s damning proof that evolution is wrong when in reality that’s just science. Everything in science is continually picked apart and scrutinized. Religion is organized belief, science is organized doubt.
Hi Agnophilo,
I hope you are having a good evening. Thanks for your feedback.
You wrote: “A hypothesis is an un-tested hypothetical explanation…”
Yes I know. There are multiple definitions for theory, one of those being a hypothesis. You can see for yourself in a dictionary. With that said, I will use it aligned with your definitions of terms. That way we can try to stay on the same page.
So a hypothesis is an untested explanation. Agreed.
A theory is a hypothesis that scientists are researching using the scientific method to gather data and evidence to support said hypothesis. When there is data and evidence available to support the hypothesis it moves to being a theory. Yet, it is not 100% proven, and there is always the possibility it is wrong. Correct me if you see it differently.
“Laws differ from scientific theories in that they do not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: they are merely distillations of the results of repeated observation.” This qoute is off Wikipedia, and I believe its sufficient to define a scientific law despite the source.
I think it would be best that we should separate ourselves from the stereotyping and general statements that are being made about scientists, evolutionists, creationists, and intelligent design and stop applying that to one another. That was not my intention, and I do want to point out that some of my general statements are not directed toward you personally.
Also, science is not the enemy, and I do not think that way at all. Science is a neutral method of systematic observation and investigation of the natural world/universe, and by gathering data and evidence drawing practical and applicable conclusions. I am not anti-science. I actually love science, and I am and will always be a student forever learning.
You wrote: “Something happening in the past does not make it an assumption or a guess…”
I see what you are saying, but even in your own example, the person accused of the crime can not be proven 100% guilty. Verdicts are handed down by juries who do so by opinion based on the evidence. There have been plenty of people convicted that were innocent of the accused crimes. Thus, in reality the jury assumes that the evidence proves the accusations true. So indeed it is an assumption in the end. In the same way, when people look at the evidence and data for evolution, they have a choice to assume it is true. Some others may believe that assumption is incorrect by interpreting the evidence differently.
So let’s break down evolution by looking at Darwin for a moment. He had a hypothesis that all life evolved from a single creature (whatever that may be). There are a number of assumptions within that hypothesis that scientists have gone about testing, researching, and gathering evidence interpreted to support the hypothetical claim. My point is that based on his observations Darwin had an idea. It was the idea that all creatures on earth evolved from a single creature.
In the same way, I believe God created everything. My hypothesis (separate from the first cause and abiogenesis) is that all creatures were designed to adapt to their environments. Therefore, the animals adapted and changed based on the environment. In addition, breeding patterns and “survival of the fittest” caused the animals to further change. Hence we have the variety of life that we can observe in the natural world. Many of my conclusions could be supported by a lot of work that scientists have done to prove evolution. I prefer to call it adaption. Evolution is defined/loaded word so I have to use something different. So in a way the Adaption hypothesis could be an actual theory based on existing scientific discoveries if applied and accepted.
Now, the differences are obvious and it begins with the initial “idea” or hypothesis. A thesis if you will. Darwin’s idea was that life evolved from a single creature. My idea is that life adapted from designed, fully formed creatures. Darwin has a single tree of life. I have multiple trees for the different kinds of creatures designed. Both ideas result in the variety of life that we observe. Darwin’s idea can not be proven 100% because no one can go back in time to observe the process. You can’t separate Darwin’s idea from including abiogenesis. In the same way, my idea of an intelligent designer can not be proven 100% because no one can go back in time to observe the process. So call it evolution or adaption, we agree life changes based on environment etc. We disagree on abiogenesis. Remember, this is my own personal view based on what I have studied and observed. So it very much is the interpretation of data and evidence.
Of course there are disagreements over details. I have not observed anything that would lead me to accept transitional creatures between species. Hopefully, I am using the scientific terms in the same way you would define them. I have not seen any of my trees merge into the one that Evolutionists believe. Yes, there are plenty of fossils that Evolutionists point to as a transitional specimen, but I have not seen any that are convincing in the slightest. I’ll leave the fraud and all out it.
Let’s take for example the Tiktaalik. I watched a terrible Nova documentary and they talked about it. It can be interpreted differently. The scientists were saying it proves the transition of fish to amphibians. First, it was a very partial, badly damaged fossil. What it looked like to me was that an amphibian was walking along and was squashed by a heavy bolder or something. That is why the head is flat and all. Go look at some road kill and you’ll see what I mean. Or it could have simply been a different animal that we have never observed. Scientists are still discovering new forms of life. No reason to claim it is a transitional creature. Its the Evolution scientists that are attempting to prove Darwin’s idea of macroevolution. That is why they claim its a transition despite having any evidence to prove their assumption. They trust the Darwin’s idea is true and draw conclusions based on the idea.
You wrote: “Science is not, despite what creationist websites promote, simply a matter of opinion.”
Yes, I agree that science includes testing and making predictions, but if you have an assumption as the foundation that guides your conclusions… it is a matter of opinion if the evidence can be interpreted in multiple ways. Plenty of people die all the time when they go to the hospital. Planes do crash. The scientific method is great, and we would like it to remove bias and opinion, but in the end human beings are biased and are motivated by opinion. I have yet to meet someone who is truly unbiased or unopionated. Darwin’s idea is very much a prediction, but it has yet to be proven conclusively even after 150 years. Many of the findings and observations could very well support the idea of adaption as I have described.
The statement that you don’t believe the scientific community is corrupt is surprising. The scientific community is made of human beings. Of course its corrupt. Sure, you have noble scientists who are really trying to hold to the principles that we have discussed, but there are plenty out there who are just as corrupt as anyone else. They will lie, cheat, falsify findings, and commit fraud if it will serve their selfish desires. That is the motivation, not to hurt religion, but I’m sure there are some out there who wouldn’t hesitate. One thing this life has taught me is to not be naive and believe everyone has good intentions or motives.
You wrote, “The fact is even christian scientists are overwhelmingly against a literal interpretation of genesis.”
I really believe that is supposition unless you have data, but it really isn’t relevant since we are talking at a more individual level.
You wrote: “List for me the scientists in the US who have been imprisoned or threatened with death (by an official institution not by some random nut) for questioning evolution and your comparison is justified.”
That is to the extreme, and I was using hyperbole to make a point. You really can’t deny that there is a culture of rejection when it comes to the scientific community majority and those scientists who believe in Intelligent Design. There are plenty of examples to provide evidence for my point.
You wrote: “Christians tend to think they are persecuted simply because they do not get special priveleges, or equate persecution with not being able to violate other peoples’ rights. ”
That is opinion and ad hominem. You can’t stereotype all Christians like that. I don’t know any Christians who feel that way, and I know a lot. The evidence proves that Christianity is the #1 persecuted faith in the world. The other religions are persecuted as well, but more Christians have died over the last 2000 years than anyone else. How do Christians in our day violate other people’s rights with our faith?
On the scientific community being wrong about Evolution you wrote, “It’s possible, but highly unlikely.” I would personally leave it at being possible. Yes, there are many Evolutionists who do act like the theory is completely true. Sure, there are some scientists who don’t present it that way, but there are many who do. You might disagree with them. Plus, there are people out there who use Evolution to attack religious people and their faith in God. That is why there is a large amount of back lash against Evolution from that community of people.
You wrote: “I’ll give you the occasional slandering, but everything else is hogwash.”
You probably have already watched Expelled with Ben Stein, but I think that is plenty of evidence to support the silencing and academic oppression.
You wrote: “You just in your response have made many charges that people you disagree with aren’t just wrong but deliberately perpetrating a fraud. Isn’t that slander?”
No, its not that they disagree with me. I only point to the legitimate examples of fraud in the scientific community. Yes, I agree there are people of faith out there that do things they shouldn’t do. And I believe we both agree that those people on both sides of the line do not represent the whole of the opposing sides or the subject matter.
You wrote: “Yes they did. Belief is subjective, knowledge is demonstrable.”
Again you missed my point. I do agree with you about subjective and demonstration, and I was pointing out that the disciples had first hand knowledge of Christ’s death and resurrection. They were eye witnesses, so they would have known it was a lie or really true. If they applied the scientific method they observed and tested Christ in a number of ways after His resurrection. Their conclusions about Him were grounded in first hand, eye witness, demonstrated knowledge.
The difference between you and I is I believe that the Bible is eye witness testimony and recorded history. You believe its a book of made up stories. Therefore, you and I will simply have to disagree. The Bible has been proven to be true in many, many ways by the sciences and non-Biblical historical sources. Just one example is that genetics proves that the entire human race descended from one man and one woman. They even put a non-religious documentary on PBS talking about our first mother. I’m also part of the DNA genealogy project. I believe the Bible because of the mountain of evidence and logical conclusions. Don’t bother responding with liberal dogma (extremely poor excuse for academic research) against the Bible, I’ve heard it and researched it for myself.
God could very well communicate with humanity by having witnesses who interacted with Him write it down. He reveals Himself how He chooses. At Mt Sinai, He revealed Himself to millions. Jesus confirmed everything all the way back to Genesis 1. He proved His words were true by being resurrected from the dead. I believe what He says about origins. The synoptic gospels (written before 70 AD) record Jesus’ prophecy about the Temple and Jerusalem being destroyed. It happened exactly like He said including the Temple being taken apart stone-by-stone. The Romans did so to get the gold that had melted from the fires. Not to mention all of the personal things I have seen in my life, or the spiritual experiences I have witnessed first hand. I’ve seriously researched my faith for at least 20 years.
You wrote: “I don’t know how someone could know that somebody ascended bodily into heaven.”
The disciples watched Him ascend up into Heaven from the Mount of Olives to the east of Jerusalem. They were eyewitnesses of the event. See Acts 1.
You wrote: “None of that logically points to jesus rising from the dead.”
That is because you believe the Bible is nothing but made up stories. If you reject the Bible as a source of information then there is nothing I can write to change your mind. If you were to apply the liberal theologian’s standard they use for the Bible to every document from antiquity, we wouldn’t have anything left. Compare the Bible manuscript evidence to that of the Greek philosophers like Plato. Everyone believes Plato’s work is authentic, why not the Bible? The manuscript evidence for Plato’s work being authentic is like the size of a mouse. The manuscript evidence for the Bible is like the size of an elephant in comparison.
You wrote: “This is not the case, it’s creationist rhetoric. While some ideas are speculation…”
That is really funny. I wrote, “There are a lot of assumptions, guesses, and pieces of the paradigm that has to be taken on faith.” Then you turn around and say some ideas are speculation. You just confirmed the point. I’ve demonstrated that in this response though no where near any level of exhaustion. Yes, I do understand the example of the fish and the scientist’s underlying belief that the mechanisms and principles have been thoroughly “proven.” Sure… adaption, not macroevolution. A single tree of life can not be proven at all outside of some bare minimum scraps of data that could be interpreted multiple ways. Let me go dig up some bones and postulate how its a transitional animal. Then I’ll go tell everyone. That is about the same thing “scientists” do.
People complain that religious people believe things that people tell them without proof. People who study Evolution do the same exact thing. Tell me… have you gone to every single “transitional” animal that has supposedly been found and examined the data for yourself? No? Why are you believing something people just tell you? How about all the other supposed evidences for macroevolution? Do you believe the news? Ever believe anything that someone told you that you didn’t have proof it was true? Those questions are not necessarily spoken to you. It goes for anyone. When it comes down to it, we all believe things people tell us without demanding absolute proof for ever little thing. You have to decide who you are going to trust. I trust Jesus and His followers who wrote down what they saw first hand as eye witnesses, heard with their own ears, and touched with their own hands. It was true and they laid down their lives proclaiming it.
You wrote, “Creationists lump them all together and call them “evolutionism” and claim they are one unified ideology simply to avoid dealing with the fact that they are not.”
This is simple rhetoric and does not apply to ever single Christian. I am very aware of the different sciences, and I don’t lump them together. Its scientists that links cosmology, abiogenesis, and evolution together as parts of a greater whole. You can’t expect me to believe that the scientific community doesn’t logically link them together. Separate sciences yes, but linked together logically into a unified ideology (to use your words). Then its presented as the truth, perhaps not scientists, but a whole lot of people including academia, media, and entertainment. Just sit down and watch a scientific documentary on the development of life on the earth. It will include all three sciences as well as others.
You wrote: “…To quote the previous pope…”
I’m protestant, the words of the Pope hold no importance to me. I read this in the news when it happened. I’m not surprised that he would support evolution as true after the way the Catholics have corrupted Christian teachings with massive amounts of false doctrines. Macroevolution is false, and he simply piled that on top of all the other false doctrines they hold to.
He said, “The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.”
I agree that the theory draws on various fields of knowledge. That doesn’t mean its true. “Neither sought nor fabricated…” That is laughable. That is saying that scientists have always worked completely independent of one another, never influenced by anyone else, and that they never sought to work collaboratively. Not fabricated… wow, that is such an error. There is plenty of fraud and fabrication. Yes, scientists are perfect human beings who have never done anything wrong, never make mistakes, have no biases, are always objective, and are never in error. Let’s all just go and kneel at their feet so they can enlighten us with their perfect knowledge and simply tell us what to believe! Those two statements are satirical.
You wrote: “Actually it was a law, and “laws” of science get “broken” all the time. New vacuum experiments suggest that emptiness is actually quite unstable and that it spontaneously produces measurable particles and energy.”
Pardon me for not using your defined terms in our discussion. What? You mean scientists are wrong all the time?
Vacuum? That is not what I’m talking about. I have no doubts that vacuum is full of energy and matter. I’m talking about complete non-existence. No fabric of space, no vacuum, no energy, no matter, absolutely nothing in existence. Then matter and energy spontaneously came into existence (no cause, no reason) along with all the other elements that make up our universe. It would take more faith for me to believe in that to believe in a first cause.
You wrote: ” It makes no claims about whether the matter came from or if it even came from anywhere or anything.”
You say that, but there are plenty of scientists that speculate. There are numerous hypotheses about how it started. I believe there was a first cause and that is God. It is a legitimate conclusion. Just because people say “There is no god” doesn’t mean that my conclusion is false. There is no reason to not believe God was the first cause. Then logic takes over linking fields of knowledge around that central thesis. God was the first cause, He created the universe, the vast reaches of space, all of the stars, solar systems, planets, and life on said planets. God chose this planet to create us for His own purpose and according to His own will for His own reasons. He designed everything on this planet to adapt hence the reason for all the variety that we see. They reproduce their own kind (genetics). Pulling all the sciences into it, there is plenty of data to support adaption as I have hypothesized. Hence it can be a theory.
You wrote: “So the big bang is bad science and ridiculous and unfounded and god caused it? ”
No. I never said the Big Bang was bad science. I said that for the entire universe to suddenly explode into existence for no reason without a cause is ridiculous. I’m pleased to see that you allow that an intelligent being could be the First Cause. I believe that the First Cause is intimately involved in everything that has been created (side note: DNA is a digital code, but its far more complex and advanced that our understanding of digital information. Information proclaims a designer.) He revealed Himself to humanity and those who witnessed the events wrote it down for others to preserve the knowledge of what happened. Don’t we preserve our knowledge in writing and digitally now? Beyond that I believe the First Cause revealed Himself to humanity through Christ. He revealed Himself to thousands in the land of Israel at that time, and sent out over a hundred as witnesses to tell everyone the Good News. That God is just, we are criminals, and we can be saved from God’s wrath by trusting in Him. He took our punishment on Himself to demonstrate His eternal, perfect love and grace. Why? We will be the examples of His grace for the ages to come.
You wrote: “These calculations are highly speculative and I’ve never found one that is impossible when you consider the number of galaxies/solar systems.”
I didn’t say it was impossible, but its so unlikely based on the numbers I’ve seen, I don’t have any problem in believing God is the First Cause and created life here on the Earth.
You wrote: “You are making claims about the dynamics of the origins of life, a process you claim never happened and is impossible.”
I say the process is so unlikely its nearly impossible. God as the First Cause is just as plausible, and in my mind much more likely. Especially based on the complexity that we see in the universe. It shouts “Designer.” The fact we are thinking, self aware, intelligent beings is proof to me that God exists. You say proteins formed by themselves, and then linked together etc so on and so forth… but science can not test the origins of emotions and consciousness by natural means. I believe God created us in His image and that is why we have emotions, consciousness etc.
You wrote: “Ideas like panspermia are not rationalizations of other ideas, they are simply explored because they are possibly true.”
The idea that there is an Intelligent Designer is possibly true. Why not explore it since it meets the same criteria? Perhaps there could be scientific data and evidence available if it was actually studied and not dismissed.
You wrote: “I still don’t get the tax analogy but something we know the nature and dynamics of and something we don’t are simply not comparable.”
I’m sorry you don’t get it. Let me put it this way. The chances of ERVs landing in the same exact spots in two separate animals that share the same environment is very small (if we are not distant relatives of the same single tree of life). I’m comparing that tiny number to the even more tiny number of life starting on its own in abiogenesis thought. If the latter is possible, its much easier to believe the former with such a massive difference in the probabilities. So it is possible the ERVs landed on their own in the same exact spots. I don’t have to believe it was a result of evolving from a common ancestor. Again, interpretation of data can be different. For one person it supports evolution, and to me it does not prove anything about evolution. I believe in Adaption not Evolution. The virus could have adapted to its environment and those particular places in DNA are the perfect locations for them. Or they were designed to land there for the benefit of the host.
You wrote: “But people who made claims about jesus in the iron age they’re totally credible.”
They are just as credible as any other human being including scientists that are alive today. There is no reason to doubt the eyewitness testimony we find in the pages of the Bible.
You wrote: “And of course you won’t bother doing that, so evolution is false.”
That is a funny assertion. Who says I haven’t done some experimentation on my own? I’ve studied a lot in my life including different sciences and fields of knowledge including biology. If I had the time I would probably spend a lot of it in the science field, but alas I must make a living full time to feed my family. So my time is limited.
You wrote: “You can’t assess the probability of thing A or thing B, but you know one is more probable than the other.”
Yes, by looking at the complexity of the universe. God is more probable by far. There would never be anything designed on the earth if humanity was not here. And the complexity of what we have designed is no where near the complexity of a single cell. It demands the explanation of a Designer.
You wrote: “You are putting words in my mouth that neither I nor anyone I’ve ever heard of would ever say. I’ve told you this, you ignore me and do it anyway.”
No, I didn’t say you said that. Nor anyone else.
You wrote: “The number of miracle claims from the age of zeus and thor and jesus is astonishing.”
Simply because people made up false gods and stories about Zeus and Thor, does not mean that the miracles of Jesus and the Bible are not true. Something happened 2000 years ago in the land of Israel that sent shock waves outward impacting vast amounts of people across tribes, tongues, nations, and peoples. Eye witnesses who saw Jesus and all He did including His resurrection, shared the knowledge with others. The eye witnesses performed miracles in the presence of hundreds if not thousands as well confirming their words. All the disciples were put to death for something they knew was the truth from first hand, eye witness experience.
You wrote: “First of all there is a lot of hypocrisy in being hyper-critical of science while then turning around and making up a bunch of things off of the top of your head and accepting them with no experiments or tests of any kind.”
You claim they are made up. I believe God told those He revealed Himself to the truth about what happened. I can’t go back in time and test it scientifically just like Evolutionists can’t go back in time and prove their assertions about abiogenesis. Darwin discussed it, so you can’t say its not part of the ideology.
You wrote: “Intermediates between birds and dinosaurs and mammals and reptiles fit in with adaptation theory? And by the way it’s not a scientific theory.”
Sure, but I wouldn’t call them intermediates. They are just varieties of animals. It can be a theory if I apply a lot of what science has said about Evolution. The few problems I have with Evolution deal mainly with the Macro concepts.
You wrote: “And different areas have different animals. This matters why? What species live in an area changes over time, this is not the same thing as the fossil record contradicting itself.”
It matters because in different areas the animals in the layers are not in the same order, so it contradicts itself.
You wrote: “The evidence is still there and plentiful. Do you honestly think every fossil is a forgery? Do you think that little of your fellow man?”
You say its there and plentiful. I’ll apply the same standard you put on the people who wrote the Bible. I can’t just “believe” what you write. No, I don’t think every fossil is a forgery, but I have yet to see any convincing transitional intermediate forms. Humanity has proven itself to be fraudulent and liars. Humans are prone to arrogance, mistakes, and errors. I’m human so I know its true.
You wrote: “Well if you’re just going to make shit up why not make it interesting and believe that fossils were brought here by aliens or something.”
Some scientists speculate aliens seeded the planet with life, so the fossils would be from aliens indirectly. Since they don’t have a good answer for abiogenesis, it is at least interesting as you say.
You wrote: “I know you think you’re being clever but you’re proposing something absurd that is absurd according to what you are arguing against.”
It was meant to be humorous. Yes, it was absurd to make a point.
You wrote: “There are supercomputers that can perform more calculations per second than there are atoms in the most complex cell in nature. The statement about being more complex than any machine is a bit outdated and depends largely on what you mean by complexity.”
The point is their understanding of a cell was completely wrong in Darwin’s time. They thought it was very simple, and in truth it is extremely complex. So the idea that a cell could form on its own is extremely improbable if not nearly impossible. You mention supercomputers… it is a designed machine and would never be built on its own. I would say it would be impossible for a super computer to be built outside of a designer. In the same way, a single cell is so complex it points to a designer. The game Spore makes me chuckle. It supposedly follows something akin to the evolution of life, but the whole time a designer is sitting at the keyboard.
As to irreducible complexity I have studied the opposing side, and I still don’t see anything that convinces me its not legitimate. Everyone I have heard misses the point. Its about specific function, not taking pieces apart and pointing to different functions. That does not disprove it at all. I will continue to study it and look over the links you have provided.
You wrote: “He claimed the bacteria flagellum could not be reduced and still function – turns out you can take away almost all of it’s parts and it still functions.”
That is simply not true. The observed specific function of the bacteria flagellum is broken if you take any of the pieces away. The most common rebuttal is that it works with pieces taken away as a type of hypodermic needle. That is the exact point. If you take pieces away it breaks the original function and takes on a different function (or none at all), but it will not work as the original, specific function without all its pieces. Its the same with the mouse trap. The trap has a specific function. Take a piece away and the function is broken. I saw a guy use a disassembled mouse trap as a tie clip, which is a different function. That is the whole point. Its about specific function, not possible functions with the various pieces or elements. The people who argue against irreducible complexity like that don’t even understand the principle. They really make themselves look foolish to people who do understand it. Michael Behe is a genius, and I respect him.
You wrote: “…Me thinks there’s a problem in your logic… Then natural selection can modify and specialize it and make it more complex to meet the needs of organisms in changing environments…”
I think my logic is just fine. There is no evidence that our environment has changed so drastically that our hearts would change like you speculate… developing from no heart to a 4 chambered heart. The human heart’s specific function is perfect for our current environment and bodies. Change that environment or the heart in any way and the human dies. That doesn’t quite work out for survival of the fittest. I’d suggest one of the problems with macroevolution is that mutations (at times) lead to death not to improving an animal over many generations. If a mutation produced a fully formed specific function then it might be more reasonable. I don’t have a problem with mutations that create the variety that we see from Adaption, but some mutations would kill the organism.
And this brings up another extremely important point. Where is the evidence for soft tissue evolution? There is none. Show me a human heart that has transitioned like you suggest. So much of macroevolution is speculation, far fetched, so improbable that designed Adaption is much more plausible.
You wrote: “Where does the fully functional god come from?”
I am not sure since He hasn’t told us yet.
You wrote: “You realize that’s a pro-evolution site critical of him, right?”
Yes I know, but it has lots of useful links to study the subject. Something wrong with that?
You wrote: “Likewise, though your sources appear to be heavily one-sided.”
Those are by no means an exhaustive list of my sources. That’s funny that you imply that.
You wrote: “I don’t do this. I will occasionally lose my temper with someone…”
That statement was general, not specifically aimed at you.
You wrote: “I realize you take all kinds of crap from people on the other side of the debate but you wouldn’t believe the crap we get from fundamentalists.”
I have no doubts that it goes both ways. People are passionate on both sides.
You wrote: “We also have to put up with a steady stream of lies from evangelists and evangelical websites like the ones you linked to.”
No source is perfect, and I leave those things that I know are incorrect and contemplate and research those points I find interesting.
You wrote: “There are lots of religious scientists and scientists who believe in an intelligent designer who have done good scientific work…”
I’m glad you have seen that.
You wrote: “…but intelligent design is not a scientific concept and cannot be empirically tested.”
The underlying thesis or idea can’t be empirically tested, but it can be a starting point to guide (a framework) the study of Adaption. Its the same with with Darwin’s underlying thesis of abiogenesis and a single common ancestor (a framework), but its a starting point to guide the study of Evolution.
You wrote: “But I don’t think it is.”
Same here, concerning my own position.
You wrote: “Everything in science is continually picked apart and scrutinized.”
In a perfect scientific community everything would be, but we don’t live in a perfect world.
P.S. Perhaps we can keep our comments a tad shorter, that way we can respond quicker. :-)
Update #1: I watched the video, “The Human Eye is NOT Irreducibly Complex.” Its a video about how an eye “might” have formed according to the narrator. There is zero evidence or data proving any of the speculation presented. Its funny because as he is building an example it is a designer that is building it. If the original creature did not have eyes why would it develop at all? There is no plausible explanation. The video doesn’t even address irreducible complexity. As Kenneth Miller said, natural selection is blind and cannot plan a complex structure, and I would add on ‘that has a specific function.’
Update #2: I watched the video “The Collapse of Intelligent Design” with Kenneth Miller. The video was about teaching ID in public schools and the various legal cases. Not sure how that would apply to me believing ID. As to teaching ID in schools I believe that should be placed in a philosophy class along with Darwin’s abiogenesis ideas to be debated. Neither one can be proven through observation and testing.
I appreciated Dr. Miller’s talk and points. I’ve addressed the Bacteria Flagellum. Its about the complexity that results in specific function. I will go on to say that the building blocks (proteins etc) can be designed in different ways for different functions. No argument there. There is no reason why an Intelligent Designer would need to have absolutely unique building blocks for each structure within a cell. If I was a designer I’d use those parts that were already available unless I needed a unique part for a specific function within a complex structure. I wonder if any of those 40 parts Dr. Miller removed would be an example.
With all due respect to Dr. Miller in regard to Dr. Behe’s work on the human blood clotting system, he passed right over the fact that yes, if one part was removed from the system in humans we would bleed out. Same for the other animals he mentioned. Take one out and you break the specific function. God could have designed each system separately for each animal and not include every single part in every single animal. From what I have observed, God prefers variety in the design work that he has done. But, he uses the same building blocks that are here and available on Earth.
Likewise, when it comes to DNA, God (I believe) is the one who wrote the extremely complex digital code, and he altered it for each kind of animal. That does not mean that he has to use a unique digital code (built of different components) for every single animal. He chose to use the same building blocks to construct the code, and did so to design all of the life on this planet. It makes perfect sense since we would be living in this environment. He designed a body for us to exist (house) our true selves (spirit/soul) in this material universe, it does not matter if it is close genetically to other primates. Perhaps Chromosome 2 is designed like it is because that is what separates our physical design from those of the great apes. The great apes have a commonality among their body structures. Humans have differences that set us apart. My point is being close in DNA design to other animals in no way nullifies an Intelligent Designer.
Dr. Miller discussed Dr. Behe’s view on the immune system. The lawyer’s tactic was flawed. Dr. Behe, as a scientist does what every scientist does to come to a conclusion (scientific method etc). For his conclusions to be right doesn’t mean that Dr. Behe would have to read every single piece of published research on the subject. He absolutely has a right to disagree with other scientific work that he deems does not prove the point to him. That is the nature of scientific inquiry, scientists do not always agree based on their findings. The courtroom antics of the lawyer doesn’t make Dr. Behe wrong that was just theatrics to persuade the judge (which is just a lawyer in a black robe). Too bad the judge didn’t see that point.
Oh look… more ridicule.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/18/clueless-ct-mainstream-journalists-admission-that-shes-a-creationist-sparks-nasty-response/
I love the part that reveals Barack Obama is a creationist. *waits for ridicule of the President*
The people calling her the c-word are pathetic trolls who should be ignored (I have been called worse things by people on the internet by the way). Also believing in a creator and being a creationist are not the same thing. Creationism is belief in a strict, literal interpretation of genesis, which obama does not do. Creationists are ridiculed for, as one comedian put it, “watching the flintstones as if it were a documentary”, not for simply believing there’s a god.
Comedians… that is a silly statement designed to get a laugh. It has no value, and it in no way applies to creationists who believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis.
As to President Obama, his remarks begin at 2:19. I was being satirical. Really the term Creationist can have multiple definitions and could be applied to anyone who believes God created life here on the earth. It depends on how you define it.
Creationism is belief in a strict, literal interpretation of genesis or some other creationist account. Deism, theistic evolution etc are not the same thing. And yes, creationists who believe humans and dinosaurs lived together in peace and harmony are essentially treating the flintstones as though it were a documentary.
I have to disagree with you. Creationism has multiple definitions. It is not our place to demand that a word have a singular meaning. The best that we can do is agree on definition of words so we can have a proper discourse of ideas.
The Flintstones comment is an ad hominem attack on people with a different perspective than yourself. I really don’t think it is appropriate. After all they could be right however improbable that it might be from your view.
Attacking someone’s position is not ad hominem, attacking them is. You could argue it’s a strawman but it is by definition not ad hominem. As for creationism by that definition darwin was a creationist. Yes you can use the term in that sense but your point relies on it meaning creationism as opposed to acceptance of evolution.
The Flintstones comment is an attack on the person. Can’t you see that by writing that it makes them look stupid?
That is true if Charles Darwin believed God created the heavens and the earth then he could be considered a creationist. So its all in the definition and use.
*Continued from previous reply*
“Doesn’t that just push the problem of origins back one and ignore it? I think love is no less hard to explain by evolution than the predatory instinct. We would be just as screwed without love and compassion and sympathy and empathy as a predator would be without the predatory instinct.”
I can understand why the predatory instinct could be explained by evolution, but why did love, compassion, sympathy, empathy, or others? If life evolved from proteins to a single cell, why would two separate life forms (cells) bond to one another like the trillions of cells that we have in our bodies. Not what bonds them, but what logical, natural process of evolution would cause that to happen? We don’t see humans or other animals fuse into one outside of the reproduction system.
[The idea that there is an Intelligent Designer is possibly true. Why not explore it since it meets the same criteria? Perhaps there could be scientific data and evidence available if it was actually studied and not dismissed.]
“The notion that life could be blasted by a meteor from one planet to the other can be tested a number of ways. You can test whether microscopic life can survive in space long enough, whether it can survive the heats and pressures of a meteor impact, whether a meteor impact can propel objects into space, etc – and we may even one day find microscopic or fossil cousins on another planet in our solar system.”
But how did life start on that planet without a cause? And on back, planet to planet, until you come to the first planet that had life on it.
“But people who made claims about jesus in the iron age they’re totally credible.”
[They are just as credible as any other human being including scientists that are alive today.]
“This is ironic since you don’t consider most scientists to be particularly credible.”
No, I don’t think that. Credibility has nothing to do with whether they are right or not. They could be very credible, but they could be dead wrong on some of their conclusions.
[There is no reason to doubt the eyewitness testimony we find in the pages of the Bible.]
“Really? If I claimed that I saw someone rise from the dead and do other seemingly impossible things you would have no reason to doubt me?”
Of course I would have reason to doubt you, but if you came along saying that and God healed a man who had been crippled and unable to walk his entire life through your prayers, then that might add some weight to your claim. Or if you were given a choice to declare your claim a lie (and you knew it was true first hand) or get tortured, and you chose torture that would add some weight to your claim. Or if they gave you a choice between death and declaring your claim a lie (and you knew it was true first hand) and you chose death that would add some weight to your claim. If there was at least a dozen eyewitnesses to your claim that would add some weight. Or a hundred to five hundred witnesses that would make your claim stronger on the probability of it being true.
Do you think people were so stupid back in the time of Jesus that they would just believe people because they said it? That is absurd. Ancient peoples were very intelligent, sophisticated, and could do things that we can’t even do today. Like build the pyramids, and build structures out of stones that are hundreds of tons fitting them together where even a sheet of paper can’t be slipped between them. Especially those structures where the stones are cut in all kinds of different angles and all. The reason Jesus performed miracles, was resurrected, and the disciples performed miracles was to prove they were actually sent by God (2 Cor. 12:12). There has to be some reason why so many people would believe Paul, Peter, and the other disciples when they came through teaching about Jesus.
“And your standard is that unless you perform an experiment yourself it’s not valid and since you don’t have the time or resources to perform experiments all experimental evidence is therefore invalid… unless it seems to support your worldview in which case it’s ironclad.”
More straw men. I never said that.
[Yes, by looking at the complexity of the universe. God is more probable by far.]
“You’re not using the word probable correctly.”
I am using it correctly. Probable in this context is defined as supported by evidence strong enough to establish presumption but not proof. Look it up for yourself.
[There would never be anything designed on the earth if humanity was not here. And the complexity of what we have designed is no where near the complexity of a single cell. It demands the explanation of a Designer.]
“Depends how you define complexity…”
Let’s define complexity as super computers (designed mechanics) and the human brain (designed biological super computer).
[Something happened 2000 years ago in the land of Israel that sent shock waves outward impacting vast amounts of people across tribes, tongues, nations, and peoples.]
“I think it was more what happened after that, when the emperor of rome converted and made it the only legal form of worship in the largest empire in the world, then when his empire collapsed the religion was used as the basis for the legal system of countless monarchies, making heresy not only heresy, but treason as well for most of the last two millenia. Islam sent shockwaves too you know.”
That was 300 years after the beginning of Christianity. Before that the Church went through tremendous persecution where emperors were using Christians as torches in their garden parties at night or throwing them to the lions or other wild animals for entertainment. Yes, Islam sent shockwaves by the sword, that is not similar to the peaceful words of the early Christians.
[It matters because in different areas the animals in the layers are not in the same order, so it contradicts itself.]
“Any geologist can tell where volcanic activity or erosion or some other process has mixed up material from multiple layers. This “problem” isn’t a problem any more than digging a hole in your backyard is a problem for the geological column.”
Sure, that is why the fossils are mixed up in different layers. I’m sure the volcanoes dug up layers of fossils and moved them around. How does lava do that by the way?
“The evidence is still there and plentiful. Do you honestly think every fossil is a forgery? Do you think that little of your fellow man?”
[You say its there and plentiful. I’ll apply the same standard you put on the people who wrote the Bible.]
“I don’t maintain that every author of the bible was lying. I’m sure they honestly felt inspired. I’ve felt inspired. I just don’t assume inspiration comes from above.”
Well, when you see Jesus yourself, or miracles, or other incredible things those people saw, then perhaps you can be inspired to their level. I’m glad you don’t maintain that every author was lying.
[I can’t just “believe” what you write. No, I don’t think every fossil is a forgery, but I have yet to see any convincing transitional intermediate forms.]
“What would convince you?”
How about a complete line of full human skeletons that show the progression of our evolution.
[Humanity has proven itself to be fraudulent and liars. Humans are prone to arrogance, mistakes, and errors. I’m human so I know its true.]
“But not the anonymous authors of the gospels?”
They were humans too, so that answers the question. But as I have illustrated, I have reasons why I believe they were telling the truth about what they experienced first hand.
“When I learned about the complexity of cells it actually made evolution make more sense to me, since I had read an old book about evolution (and other concepts) that said it was a mystery why evolution seemed to do nothing until the development of multi-cellular creatures. It made no sense why life seemed to be not evolving and then seemed to be evolving rapidly (geologically speaking). When I found out about how complex cells are I thought “oh that makes more sense, cells were evolving all that time”. This, to me, removes a “problem” for evolution.”
That supports my point that evidence and data can be interpreted differently by different people with different philosophical viewpoints.
[You mention supercomputers… it is a designed machine and would never be built on its own. I would say it would be impossible for a super computer to be built outside of a designer. In the same way, a single cell is so complex it points to a designer.]
“This is irrelevant to the point I made.”
I used the example to illustrate my own point as you did for yours.
[The game Spore makes me chuckle. It supposedly follows something akin to the evolution of life, but the whole time a designer is sitting at the keyboard.]
“If you want something more like actual evolution you should check out this (it’s free):
http://boxcar2d.com/
Let it run for a few generations and watch the little cars evolve purely by random variation and natural selection.”
I may do that, but I am really loving Kerbal Space Program at the moment.
[As to irreducible complexity I have studied the opposing side, and I still don’t see anything that convinces me its not legitimate. Everyone I have heard misses the point. Its about specific function, not taking pieces apart and pointing to different functions.]
“You seem to be blending behe’s irreducible complexity and dembski’s specified complexity arguments together into one.”
The two do go hand in hand in my opinion. I don’t necessarily agree with every single point or conclusion of both arguments as presented by Behe or Dembski. Really that goes for every scientists, scholar, or philosopher I study.
[The observed specific function of the bacteria flagellum is broken if you take any of the pieces away. The most common rebuttal is that it works with pieces taken away as a type of hypodermic needle. That is the exact point. If you take pieces away it breaks the original function and takes on a different function (or none at all), but it will not work as the original, specific function without all its pieces.]
“The “specific function” is irrelevant. The argument is that the mechanism is unevolvable by gradual modification since it needs all of it’s parts to be together at the same time to have any function and the odds of all the parts coming together is so small it couldn’t have happened. The response is that biological mechanisms can evolve by modification of precursor structures the way that for instance a hand did not just suddenly appear but the bones and ligaments in it have been evolving for many millions of years (going back to and even before those wrist bones appeared in tiktaalik). You can’t have a wing without an arm or an arm without a fin or a fin without a ridge or a ridge without a bump and so on, so if it doesn’t work at every stage evolution is impossible. But of course it simply has to be functional and useful (and thus something that would be favored by natural selection) it does not have to perform the same consistent function, that makes no sense.]
I disagree. Natural selection is blind and can not plan functional components to the degree of complexity that we see in the natural world. There is no evidence. That is one reason why I think parts of evolution are impossible. All life descending from one organism is an example. Think for a moment. There are so many different life forms on the Earth. How can all of them evolve such complexity all at the same time to the point of what we see today? Hypothetically I could see one organism evolving something beneficial, but for 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 organisms to all be able to evolve such complexity all at the same time? And what about those life forms on the Earth that exist in completely hostile environments? How did our common ancestors do that without dying in the environment? Hypothetically speaking of course.
Well, I will stop there. I appreciate and have enjoyed our conversation, but I do not see a reason to continue if its going to continue to be a circular pattern of back and forth on issues and points that we have already discussed so far. We have deep disagreements, and I don’t see the benefit for either of us to rehash point-for-point over-and-over again.
If you do have some new points you would like to discuss, then please feel welcome to bring those forward one at a time so we can discuss them. So propose a thesis and we can discuss/debate it if you like.
Though I want it to be more focused if we are to continue. These responses that are taking days to compose on such a vast amount of topics is becoming tedious since they have turned into a circular pattern. Plus, we are pushing WordPress comments beyond the max number of allowed characters.
Take care, and I hope you have a great day!